dekedangle_rpfanon | #23 — Brown Goes Down

#23 — Brown Goes Down

This is the twenty-third post of Deke Dangle RPF Anon, a community for all your ice hockey anon meme needs.

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Current Malkin, no. But sports - all sports - are fickle and what looks like a good deal when the contract is signed doesn't mean ANYTHING for the future.

I'm not a Hawks or a Pens fan but comparing Malkin to Toews is laughable.

In the middle of the Washington series less than two weeks ago, Malkin was the Pens leader in playoff points. That was with Fehr and Kunitz on his line. His contract sure seemed worth it then.

Sports are fickle and although the HBK line has been doing well, that has meant the comparatively weaker lines, both Malkin's and Crosby's, have suffered. That doesn't mean that generational talents are no longer generational talents.

He's also almost definitely playing injured. I think Horny has been, too. Before blocking that shot, I mean. Anyway I don't know why the Malkin hateboner blowhard is trying so hard or why other people are handwringing about Malkin getting traded, when the real person to be anxious and worried about as far as I'm concerned is Flower. I like Murray just fine but I would have much rather gotten here with Flower and I don't know what's in his future this summer.

na

I don't think Flower's getting traded this summer, because one hot playoff run is just not enough to not only make a 21-year-old your starter but trade away your insurance, too. I think we're going to see Flower starting next year but Murray playing a bunch of games, too (or possibly vice versa), and if all goes well, probably trade Flower next summer. So I'm not "worried" so much as already convinced we don't have Flower much longer. Which breaks my heart tbh, because he's one of my favorites and he's always been here.

And yeah, I definitely appreciate Murray's contributions and what he's accomplished, but I've been a member of the Flower Playoffs Redemption Squad for years now, and I'm bummed he's stuck on the sidelines through all this.

Also can I just say before we settle on Murray for good, can we please do something about those huge rebounds off his pads. They about give me a heart attack every time.

+1 to an extent. I think if we lose, we'll see Flower start next year. If we win (with Murray in), it'll be Murray. How could it not be?

Either way, Flower won't be worth his cap hit much longer with Murray playing like this. It's fucking gut-wrenching because this was Flower's best regular season in how long? And to think it was fucked because of multiple concussions which the Pens org did nothing about by way of keeping him off. I can't even think about it without getting mad.

Re: Geno, I hope he's not doing more damage to his elbow coming back early. Also I just really want pictures of his baby in a Cup. He's due in the next couple weeks! :D

ayrt

I don't know that the cap hit is going to be a problem this year when Cullen and Lovejoy are our most significant UFAs and Bennett and Schultz are our RFAs. Nobody key has a big blinking "gonna get paid" sign over their head.

There've been multiple head hits this year that I thought the Pens have handled poorly - most within the last two weeks - but neither of Flower's concussions seems to have been caused by an obvious head hit or other incident where you'd clearly want to have someone checked out, and Flower seems to have been pretty proactive in self-reporting and then staying out as long as necessary. So it sucks that he had them, but I'm not inclined to be mad at anyone about them. (Except maybe James Neal, because screw that jerk anyway.)

And yes to Geno and his elbow. :\

He's due in the next couple weeks! :D

LOL, phrasing, nonnie. :D

sa

Although, I forgot Olli Maatta's starting his new contract next year. So that is a cap hit we're going to have to account for somehow.

Lovejoy leaving, Schultz's paycut (or him leaving too) and the rising cap should take care of Maatta's raise, really. If they can dump the Kunitz contract this summer they're golden.

The next big "crunches" coming are when Hornqvist's contract is up and Dumoulin's deal. Dumo could get something like Simon Despres did in Anaheim, though it will probably be lower because he'll never score a goal in his natural life. For that, we may have to sacrifice someone like Cole.

There's the question of re-signing Daley, unless Pouliot has stepped up as a suitable replacement. That goes for Bonino as well, but if he wants a huge payday there's a replacement for him too. That flurry of WBS NHL deals given to Wilson, Rust and Kuhnhackl are going to seem like godsends pretty soon.

They'd have to trade Fleury (or Murray, whichever) mid-season. If he's around next summer, they won't get anything for him, because he'll be taken in the expansion draft.

I don't know why everyone's so sure they'd be taken in the expansion draft. There will likely only be one expansion team. That team will only need only two goalies. All 30 teams will have goalies exposed. There's a lot of good backups in the league.

Last time there was an expansion draft, the teams were allowed to take three goalies (there were two expansion teams and six were chosen) and we haven't heard any rules yet this time around limiting the number of goalies taken. Teams will take as many good goalies as they can, not only for their own two slots, but for use as valuable trade pieces. Heck, last time, the Sharks gave away draft picks to both teams in exchange for them not taking a goaltender.

Assuming there's three to six goalies taken, you have to guess that Murray will be one of them looking around the league. (Fleury has to be protected unless the Pens trade him, because he's got a NMC.)

Re: General fandom discussion

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-19 23:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: General fandom discussion

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-20 00:01 (UTC) - Expand

Na

true, but unless they manage to trade him beforehand the Pens will have to protect Fleury because of his NTC, leaving Murray exposed. Assuming he manages to play like he has for this very small sample of games, at his current price it's hard to find a better choice, let alone two.

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Re: General fandom discussion

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-19 23:04 (UTC) - Expand

It isn't just about Malkin's performance in the playoffs. Malkin's absence at the end of the regular season and his performance in the playoffs this year only proves that the Pens are capable of being the best team in the league without him being a factor. (And no, his one good offensive game against a terrible Rangers PK and goalie in the midst of a meltdown does not mean he's played well overall.) And you really can't compare Malkin and Crosby considering the fact that Crosby always faces the toughest match-ups and still outperforms Malkin.

My larger point is about his injury history. He's only played more than 70 games once this decade (and the other he season came close to that total, 2014-2015, he played injured down the final stretch so he was scoreless in the last few regular season games + the playoffs). Now that the Pens have a roster and a system where he isn't relied upon to be the number two guy, is it really worth it to invest so much into an aging, injury prone player for a team that is already top-heavy? I say no.

People often bring up Toews as an example of bad contract, but Toews actually has more points and goals than Malkin in the last four seasons, all while being a perennial Selke candidate. When's the last time Malkin finished in the top 10 in points? Goals? Hart voting? I mean, points per game is a nice stat, but that's not helpful when you're sitting in the press box. Malkin has had 3 great regular seasons, and 1 great playoff run, but he hasn't done anything lately to show that he's a generational talent. Crosby is a lock to be near the top in scoring and Ovechkin is a lock for the Rocket every year. What has Malkin done lately to be comparable to them? Maybe at one point, but they left him behind a long time ago.

Not a Pens nonnie, and oh I had no idea he was injured this much. Otoh, how many games did he miss on average during those seasons, because it's one thing for a team to do well without one of it's best player for a little while, or them having a rough stretch , and another to miss their contribution altogether when any replacement just wouldn't come near their level of talent.

Is there a phrase for the equivalent of "first world problems" in hockey? Because this is it.

Toews actually has more points and goals than Malkin in the last four seasons

This is such an insanely silly and arbitrary comparison to prove that one player is better/more valuable than another. Malkin has more points than Toews in the last five seasons; if that's too long a time range when talking about current worth, Malkin also has more points than Toews in the last three (and two) seasons -- so you obviously picked the timeframe that would include one of Toews' best seasons (and one of Malkin's worst) and omit one of Malkin's best. Furthermore, in the last four seasons, it was only the least recent one (2012-13) where Toews had more points than Malkin; this season they were tied, and in each of the last two, Malkin had more points. That's not even taking points per game into account -- which actually should be taken into account. Sure, Toews being able to play more consistently than Malkin is a point in his favor and part of his value. But being capable of high-scoring performances is also valuable, because being able to score more per game directly impacts your team's chances of winning a given game on a given night.

sa

Your argument is also bizarrely recentist. Just because the Pens had one recent stretch where they didn't have Malkin and everything was great doesn't mean they don't need him long term. It was only a little more than a year ago that Crosby was playing great all through March and April (led the league in scoring up until the last day), yet the Pens were on a massive losing streak and fans were ready to sacrifice limbs for Malkin to come back. Of course, now they have the HBK line, but it was only a few months ago that people were complaining about how Bonino and Kessel were busts and bad trades. Star players are streaky, and thinking that they can afford to let talent go and just fill in that space with bodies because star players X and Y will always score and carry the team is exactly what kept the Pens from contending for the Cup for so long after 2009 anyways.

I chose the post-lockout seasons; I wasn't purposefully trying to shortchange Malkin. Toews vs Malkin isn't even the issue here. I used him as an example since most people on here think his contract is bad. My thinking is that because Toews provides value outside of scoring that Malkin does not, all while producing similar point totals, I don't think it's fair to say Toews' contract is bad while Malkin's is good. If you think a higher PPG total, but significantly less games played makes Malkin's better, that's fine. The bigger point is that there are players who produce more than both for less.

It's not "bizarrely recentist" because major factors have changed that make the past irrelevant to the discussion. You can't bring up Malkin's past value or how certain players performed under MJ because there is a completely new system and coach in place. This Pens team has looked dominant for long enough to get idea of the team's potential and each player's role in the system. Still, a player's value is based on recent play and team circumstances. There are countless examples across sports where one player was injured, and some other player (s) stepped up in their absence and suddenly that injured player no longer has the same role or value when he comes back and is traded. Or where a player is a traded after a poor start to the season (Hagelin and Perron, for example). It would be stupid and bizarre if I said the Pens should trade Crosby because Kessel is outscoring him in the playoffs. But considering Malkin's injury history and inconsistent play, I don't think it's ridiculous at all to believe that a Malkin trade could be beneficial for the Pens.

Re: your first point - Isn't that the biggest problem with how NHL contracts work, though? Players only can get paid the big bucks when they're fairly old and what they get will kind of be based on talent/past success, even if going forward that contract might hurt, because letting them walk while the window to win again is still open might hurt worse in the long run? Like, will the Hawks and Kings and Penguins cap issues come back and haunt them? Most likely. If I were a fan of either of those teams, I'd still be happy because it would mean my team had won and was a serious contender with a great core these past couple years.

Re: General fandom discussion

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-20 00:36 (UTC) - Expand

lol you are so pressed. You keep coming back even after it's been made clear you've got some sad grudgewank going on, probably related to some shipping issues although that's just my guess. He's injury prone. Okay. So was Mario Lemieux. Would you also say he's not a generational talent?

You can look at end of season stat totals or selectively bring up Toews' stats all you want, but the fact is that the PPG is one of the most reliable indicators of a player's talent and Geno's is through the roof. Yes, I would say he is still a generational talent. He and Flower are the reasons we're in the playoffs tyvm. The Pens were capable of being exactly one of the worst teams in the League this season if Geno hadn't been there when Sid wasn't scoring. So yes, I would rather keep him for the duration of his contract. But please, continue with your obvious ship-related grudge. It's just making me double-down on how much I like Geno.

+1 on the suspicion this is ship-related. No one is this hilariously hateful of one of the best players in the league unless they're seriously bitter.

I've already listed why I think Malkin is overrated.

Flower is the main reason the Pens didn't plummet to the bottom of the standings. Malkin was the best forward, sure, but he really only had a small stretch of games where he was great. No one played up to potential under MJ. Then of course, Malkin got injured again at a critical time when the Pens were still fighting for a playoff spot, and Crosby and co. were forced pick up the slack, per usual. Crosby finished 3rd in league scoring and led the league for the last fifty games or so, Letang was the highest scoring d-man in 2016, but Malkin and his five game stretch is "the reason" the Pens made the playoffs. Right. See how the bar is much lower for some players?

And I'll just ignore the Lemieux comparison.

lmao @ you bringing up tanger, who has been injured more often than geno across careers. did you know that if you look up stats for letang and karlsson in the last 5 years karlsson has more points thus proving that letang is a useless scrub who we should trade!!!!1

geno's not playing well right now. he's injured. sid's not playing too great either. the team can carry them for a while like they've carried the team in the past.

and in the meantime you can continue being so, so bitter. *pets you*

Both of you are being totally insufferable and are distorting reality to shit on a player you don't like or defend your poor put upon fandom fave. To say that Malkin has only been "great" for five games this season is so totally ridiculous it isn't even worth arguing. Letang has definitely not been injured more than Malkin -- he has more games played than Malkin does since 2008-09 (the first season that Letang was consistently up in the NHL). Crosby has definitely been playing noticeably better than Malkin the last few games (very possibly due to his coming back early from injury). And you constantly making ad hominem attacks and talking condescendingly about how anyone who doesn't like Malkin must be so hateful and bitter and is just making you ~double-down on loving Geno!! totally undermines your point and is why everyone hates Pens fans.

Of course Malkin isn't playing well, he already used his three good months up for the season. No matter how many excuses you bring up, the truth is that the pens have played like a cup winning team all while Malkin has been either injured or a non-factor, his former linemates (Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist, ect.) have all looked better with other centers - forcing Malkin to play with the team rejects, and Nick Bonino has essentially replaced him as second line center. Really, it was smart of him to rush back so it didn't become even more apparent how unnecessary he is in this system. But yes, Geno is the reason and all that. Maybe he'll manage to scrape together some secondary assists on the PP or something.

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(frozen comment) Re: General fandom discussion

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