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This is the twenty-third post of Deke Dangle RPF Anon, a community for all your ice hockey anon meme needs.

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Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
infidelity on a woman with a man =/= misogyny and creepiness

I read through my tsb emails this morning and I think that while the above is true, there is a great post somewhere on tumblr about fandom's history of misogyny via patterns of killing off the mothers in kidfic, having married characters cheat on their wives for the other half of the otp, et cetera and nowadays I tend not to give people the benefit of the doubt when they write (or in this case prompt) this kind of thing. Potentially they don't see women as impediments to their slash otp but I don't think I even care. It's just boring and very 2005 ffnet.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
na

I'm generally in agreement with you, but I felt like this prompter was very careful in trying to word the prompt so that Anna wouldn't be shunted to the side. It seemed like they were less interested in a narrative where Anna gets pushed aside for Sid, and more in the kind of real, messy conflict of a love triangle (esp. since this fandom and especially Sid/Geno are really short on conflict). That doesn't rule out any possibility of misogyny on the OP's part, but I thought the reaction was really over the top and spectacularly ungenerous, especially considering there have been plenty of other infidelity prompts involving RL non-famous wives/girlfriends/partners that haven't gotten this kind of reaction at all.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
nayrt

Yeah, I guess whether it's misogynistic will depend on the OP's state of mind and there's no point speculating on that in an anonymous environment. For me the prompt fails on the privacy/creepiness issue. I don't read WAGs in fic and I think bringing Geno's (or anyone's) actual kid into fic is not cool.

Also, can I get some receipts on those plenty of infidelity on RL non-famous WAGs prompts? I can't seem to recall any off the top of my head.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

I personally agree about the problem privacy and creepiness, especially wrt the kid, but a lot of other people in this fandom clearly have different boundaries. There is plenty of other fic (and probably other kink meme prompts) that involve RL people in ways I find creepy. So I also didn't appreciate the conflation of the privacy/creepiness issue with the accusation of misogyny (especially bc people make the accusation the other way around too -- if you object to RL women in fic, it's because you're a misogynist slasher who wants to erase RL women). It seemed to me like the potential objections to the prompt are legitimate, but the reaction was clearly motivated by other things as well.

I don't have links, but one I remember specifically was asking for Sid/Mario fic where instead of erasing Nathalie/having Mario be single, Mario is actively cheating on her (and possibly she finds out/there is fallout).

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
I think it might be about timing. I don't give a flying fuck about the Pens but even I know there's a lot of excitement about Malkin and his gf and their baby. So in the middle of all that, when someone comes out of the woodwork and asks for a fic where their otp comes in between that--even if they're not specifically asking for him to abandon his family for Sid--I understand it putting people off. It just seems shady as fuck even if it wasn't meant to be.

But for me, personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to read about something like that with an irl gf so I'm probably not being very understanding.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
NA

But Mario Lemieux has actually cheated on Nathalie IRL. Why would anyone go to bat for his character when he's vermin or object that such a prompt is misogynistic towards Nathalie when the infidelity/shunting aside it calls for has canon precedent? btw one example is not "plenty".

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
+1

Ohh yes, you actually articulated something that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Timing definitely plays a part in my questioning OP's genuineness.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

Yeah, I totally understand being put off, and especially with your good point about the timing. And even otherwise, I'd probably be a little wary of a fic like that or anyone who wrote/prompted it in namespace. But I thought that the reactions -- and the accusations made -- were over the top, and many verging on ridiculous. For example, bringing up "how dare you! RL baby!!!" (a valid objection!) as part of an accusation of how ~terrible a misogynist the OP seems like a very shady tactic -- the treatment of the baby having nothing to do with misogyny and just being used in a pathos-inducing way to condemn the OP as a misogynist.

Re: Women's Hockey

From: (Anonymous)
I like the concept of #bestkessel shirt, but I'm not sure I like the execution of the design enough to buy it.

http://nwhl.co/bestkessel/

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
Just because some people's erasure/dislike of RL women = misogyny does not mean that encroaching into the private life of a RL woman who has expressly decided to not, at least for the moment, be a public figure in any capacity =/= misogyny.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
DA - I thought it was a fairly standard prompt, not my thing, but I honestly didn't understand the reaction.

But, this maybe because I have zero interest in Geno and no particular feelings about him having a baby.

I just hate when people wank on the kinkmeme though so maybe that influenced my view.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

I don't see how the fact that he's cheated on Nathalie IRL (with women presumably) has anything to do with whether a prompt asking him to cheat on him in a fictional way with a man is misogynist or not.

Cool, I was just giving an example of one particular prompt that I remembered specifically.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
encroaching into the private life of a RL woman who has expressly decided to not, at least for the moment, be a public figure in any capacity

Cool, but again, this is far from the first prompt to do that, and the concern of the violation of the privacy of a RL woman was not addressed in separation from the problem of a prompt asking for a man to cheat on his RL partner with a man. Also, a lot of the handwringing was over the involvement of a RL baby, which was definitely conflated with the misogyny accusation despite not having anyone to do with it.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
Infidelity is an actual aspect of Mario Lemieux's character and history. A prompter might just want to be true to that character or find it interesting to write it happening again fictionally. These wants don't necessitate misogyny.

Re: Women's Hockey

From: (Anonymous)
Too Rangers-y for me. But if they revisit the concept with another design some other time, I'll definitely take a look at that.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
Cool, but you agree that:

a) encroaching on her private life, especially since she's now not a public figure, is misogynistic (the fact that other prompts do this is irrelevant)
b) including the kid is creepy as fuck


So why the hell are you still arguing this again?

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

No, but by that logic, the OP who prompted on kinkmeme wanted to explore infidelity as an aspect of Malkin's character. How the male character is being treated (he's a RL cheater so it's ok to portray him as a cheater, there's no knowledge of him having ever cheated so it's not fair to him to portray him that way) has nothing to do with the argument of how the female character is being treated. (Because Nathalie's been cheated on once, no portrayal of her in Mario/other characters fic can be misogynist?)

A prompter might just want to be true to that character or find it interesting to write it happening again fictionally. These wants don't necessitate misogyny.

I mean, yes, exactly. Just like the OP of the prompt just finds it interesting to consider infidelity/a Malkin/Crosby/RL girlfriend love triangle interesting fictionally. As I already said, I don't think these wants necessarily constitute misogyny. I just think that Mario's RL cheating has nothing to do with the debate of whether it is misogynist or not.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

If you read any of my previous comments, you'd see that my point was that the reaction to this particular prompt was over the top and motivated by some wanky issues other than genuine concern for misogyny and creepiness. So if we're in agreement, you're the one who started unnecessarily arguing with me.

Re: Hockey Articles/Media

From: (Anonymous)
There's a part where Geno speaks to the trainer in english and his english voice is so soft when he's not talking to hockey media. I wonder if he sounds like that away from the cameras when talking with the team.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
Cool, but you still haven't provided me with other receipts.

Also, this is one prompt. Yes, I would agree it is misogynistic but either I didn't see it or I didn't care about Mario (I don't) or I thought it's in line with his shady character. I imagine others felt the same and that's why no backlash. Doesn't make this prompt we're discussing now any less objectionable.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
So? You agree that it's still misogynistic and creepy. Those points are valid. Who cares what the motivations were? Nice work on being able to mindread the intentions of anon people on the internet, by the way.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
I didn't care about Mario (I don't) or I thought it's in line with his shady character.

This is exactly my point. People don't care about Mario and think this is in line with his shady character. People care about Geno and don't think infidelity is part of his character. All this has nothing to do with the treatment of RL women.

I'm not talking about how objectionable the prompt is or isn't. I'm talking about where I think the wanky reaction is coming from besides just a genuine concern about misogyny (and your comment is super telling in this regard).

I already said that I don't have links. If you think my impressions of what I've seen on meme are wrong, that's totally valid. You don't need to demand receipts from me that I've already said don't have as a way to derail what else I'm saying.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
+1

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
ayrt

I care because I thought the wank not just over the top but made some accusations that were unfair and harmful. It doesn't take "mind reading" to be able to see when an accusation of misogyny is being made in a way that is rooted in legitimate concerns but makes some assumptions and conflations that are unfounded. If you don't care about these things, that's fine -- you don't need to engage in conversation about it and continue to badger me about things that I'm not arguing about.

Re: Kinkmeme Discussion

From: (Anonymous)
So you're agreeing that the fic is misogynistic and creepy, but you're so concerned about how the (anon) people making that exact point were all un-genuine about their concerns.

What a spectacular waste of time.